“Pioneers of their generation”: that’s what Senegalese duo Defmaa Maadef claims to embody at the 2024 edition of the Transmusicales. Sitting next to each other, Mamy Victory, the rapper from Dakar, placed her hand on the thigh of Defa, formerly a member of the group Rafa and former backing singer for Daara J Family. Very attentive to each other, Mamy Victory ensures that Defa’s voice, surprisingly shy during our interview (quite the opposite of the vocal power she demonstrates on stage), is heard. Similarly, Defa often seeks out her friend’s gaze, hoping always to be on the same page. Watching this support, and commitment to elevate each other, their sisterhood is obvious. By incorporating urban sounds to their songs, their aim is to bridge the gap between the new generation and Senegal’s long musical traditions.
Mamy Victory: Following in the footsteps of Youssou N’dour, Xalam 2 and Orchestra Baobab, which is celebrating its 50th anniversary, we need to succeed in exporting Senegalese music. We need to get the ball rolling with this new generation, and we’re going to be the pioneers of our generation.
Defa: A lot of people think that Senegal is all about mbalax, but that’s only a small part of Senegalese music. There are so many interesting cultures to discover and we want to show that beauty to the world. There is Bougarabou drums, Yeela music, Serer music, Jola music and Fula music… That’s where Baay Sooley, our artistic director, comes in, to find a balance with other, more urban styles.
Mamy Victory: You have to find the right balance between Senegal’s intangible heritage and what’s being done today, whether it’s amapiano, afrobeats or electro. Because it’s very difficult to mix these kinds of sounds. You really have to do a lot of research and take time to manage all the BPMs. On ‘Kalanakh’, for example, we managed to integrate Doudou Ndiaye Rose’s sabar with amapiano, even though the tempos aren’t necessarily the same. It’s a huge job.
Defa: We toured Senegal during this period. We went to Casamance, we even went to the corners of Dakar.
Mamy Victory: To meet the people we still call the Senegalese masses.
Defa: Places where sabars are passed around: wonderful things to discover for artists which helped us see Senegalese music in a different light. Then, from our little artistic residency, if I can call it that, we were able to start our project.
Mamy Victory: I think that as urban artists we sometimes tend to confine ourselves to these styles, when there are other things going on in Senegal. That’s how we discovered the evenings of a typical Senegalese singer called Ngone Ndiaye Gueweul who only performs traditional Senegalese music and leumbeul, a very sexy dance of the hips from Senegal with Bin Bin (name given to waist beads in Senegal). We had a lot to learn, but also things to say to these people, who don’t necessarily consume urban music. We had to make this mix between what they listen to, traditional Senegalese music, and urban music.
This patriotic stance is also reflected in tracks like Dieuredieuf. Defmaa Maadef promises to introduce us to ‘the new Senegalese sound’ by drawing on its ‘intangible heritage’, a talking point repeated many times by the duo.
Mamy Victory: Dieuredieuf means thank you in Wolof. It was originally a song dedicated to the Senegalese national football team, who honoured us by bringing home the African Cup. We were inspired by the fans’ songs and phrases. The percussion instruments on the track are called assiko and they’re used in the stadium, for example, to support your team.
Conversely, the need to familiarise Senegalese youth with their culture also seems a necessity to them.
Mamy Victory: The new generation forgets where we come from. We are drawing on the heritage of big names like Youssou N’Dour, Baaba Maal, Ismaël Lô, Cheikh Lô, Xalam 2, Orchestra Baobab, Positive Black Soul and Daara J Family. At one time or another, these men carried the colours of Senegalese culture around the world. In 1987, Youssou N’Dour sang in front of thousands of people in Athens. But in the 90s and 2000s, we noticed a change, which I think was due to people uprooting themselves. We tried too hard to copy what was being done elsewhere.
Defa: Young people don’t know Xalam 2. One day, a friend said to me: ‘You can’t do Beyoncé in front of Beyoncé’. As time went by, I understood what he meant. In front of Beyoncé, I want to sound like Aminata Fall, the great diva of Senegalese music who had a big, griot-like voice. We’re pretty proud of our music and we’re aware of its value. In the same vein, I really like this video of Miriam Makeba explaining that her name isn’t Miriam Makeba and then pronouncing it with kicks. It’s wonderful to be able to do that.
Mamy Victory: We’re also in an era where everybody is looking towards Africa. We’re proud to see the likes of Burna Boy, Tems and Arya Starr winning Grammys and BET awards. Ten years ago, that wouldn’t have been possible. Africa is in the process of exporting its culture to the rest of the world, but there is still work to be done in Senegal. On the international scene, if you take away Youssou N’Dour, Daara J and all the others, who’s really touring?
Defa: There’s a place for us to fill.
Having established this, the duo lament over the lack of venues which would allow them to build this cross-generational bridge.
Defa: There aren’t really many Senegalese parties open to singers, either in Dakar or Saint Louis. There are a few events reserved for sabar players and other percussionists, which are only attended by a certain demographic. We hope that one day we’ll be able to create some kind of place where young people can express themselves: studios, rehearsal rooms that would be accessible for organising mini-concerts and jam sessions.
Mamy Victory: In Dakar, we used to have Just 4 U, where artists could get together. But that’s been dead for seven years now.
Defa: Yes, I remember opening for a big diva there in 2015. It was huge! There was a time in Saint-Louis when things were really happening. In 2015, things came to a bit of a standstill. That’s what motivated my move to Dakar, which has become the best place to be an artist, to express yourself freely and to play concerts. But Saint-Louis remains a magnificently cultural city with its jazz festival. I think that with the new gas development, it’s going to come back to life, that culturally speaking, the city of Saint-Louis is going to take off again.
And yet, their show seems perfectly polished. The two women take to the stage, dancing and demonstrating their percussion skills in bondage-style leopard outfits. This was undoubtedly a suggestion from their artistic director Baay Sooley, a former member of the legendary Positive Black Soul. Earlier in the day, the two young women described him as such:
Mamy Victory: He’s an artist who wears a great many hats. He’s an artistic director, he’s a stylist, he’s very well known in Senegal. He’s a trendsetter. He’s an optimiser of talent. We’re lucky to have him. What’s more, we exploit him because we make him work without paying him.
Defa: He’s helped us develop our style, particularly in terms of our clothes. Everything comes from him. Sometimes he’ll suggest something a bit crazy, which causes initial reluctance, but we always end up changing our minds, because the people around us are impressed by the aura we exude through our style.
Behind them also stands Doudou Sarr, founder of the Dakar Music Expo which saw the duo’s debut:
Defa: He simply created Defmaa Maadef. Originally, Mamy Victory and I were friends. We spent all our time together. We’d go to the studio together and help each other out as women. That was always our motto, even before we started our career together. Doudou, as soon as he saw us, he saw the duo.
Mamy Victory: He also is a very eccentric person and sometimes ideas come from him too. We’re lucky to have two men with really sharp minds behind us. They’ve managed to bring out the proud black female side of us that helps define our musical identity.
Through their artistic endeavours and in several of their songs, including ‘Jigeen’, ‘Kalanakh’ and ‘Oh Maliko’, Defa and Mamy Victory ardently encourage women to take the place they deserve in society.
Defa: We’re trying to impose a new trend: we’re no longer demanding, we’re taking.
Mamy Victory: In the chorus of ‘jigeen’ (woman in Wolof), we say ‘Jigeen bi Bul ko joy lo’ which means ‘she’s a woman, so don’t make her cry’. We mean ‘don’t piss her off!’. It’s our way of softening the message.
Their experience as Senegalese artists explains this almost militant approach.
Defa: Making a career as an artist is difficult for anyone, but for a woman it’s even more so. My solo career started before Defmaa Maadef, but it was only with this duo that I started playing on Senegalese stages. There isn’t enough space for women to express themselves. We’re really struggling to take off. There are a few all-female festivals, but it’s a shame that it’s the way it is. The truth is that women have to organise events in order to be included in the line-up. Otherwise, it’s not uncommon to have a ratio of one woman to ten men in a concert. It happened to Mamy as a rapper.
Mamy Victory: Twenty-four men on the line-up and I was the only woman! You also have to realise that we have a rather sexist society in Africa. Whether it’s in Senegal or in other countries, it’s always the man who’s in front and the woman who stays behind. That’s the mentality we’ve been brought up with, even though it’s 2024! Sometimes people ask me if my career is compatible with my married life, if my husband gets angry when I come home late, if I make him dinner before going to a concert or an interview. But I have such an open-minded and understanding husband that he’s capable of making his own dinner!
Defa: Like the big boy he is. It’s exhausting having to fight every day.
Mamy Victory: It’s important for us to be able to talk about all this in our songs. There are others who are going through it, but who can’t say it. We have a duty to speak out.
The strategy seems to be bearing fruit, at least in part, if the trend started on TikTok around their track ‘Kalanakh’ is anything to go by, with many young women conjuring up their warrior spirit.
Lastly, the duo denounces the lack of institutional support as the final obstacle to their mission of transmission.
Defa: I’d like to say that I’m hopeful. It is true we artists have always been relegated to the background. We’ve never had any particular support from the Minister of Culture and I don’t see why that should change now. We’re so used to doing everything on our own that we’re going to continue to make our own way. We started out in 2022 and have been touring ever since. We’re getting by, but it’s not easy. We did WOMEX in 2023, but we didn’t have a stand from our minister. The help came from the Germans, from the Goethe Institute. Maybe things will change under the new regime. (Editor’s note: Senegal now has a new government with the election of President Bassirou Diomaye Faye and his Prime Minister Ousmane Sonko, opponents to former President Macky Sall. The results of last November’s legislative elections gave them the support of the assembly).
Mamy Victory: Actually, the problem lies more in the financial support. There’s a problem there. Doudou always has to carry everything on his shoulders. It’s difficult because we travel with six or seven people, even if it has become a habit.
Defa: If you wait for them, you’re not going to go! For example, we were due to go on a summer tour and we got a reply to a letter sent to our Minister of Culture the day before we were supposed to leave.